Very best single tank water softener?

It's time to replace my GE water softener. I'd like to hear some opinions on what is the very best water softener brand/model that fits in the typical size of the GE / Kenmore models? I only have that much space. I don't have space for those fancy units that come with separate tanks. Whats wrong with your current unit? Its probably somewhat cheaper to repair if you DIY. Not backwashing, or using salt? Did you do a hardness test? City or well water? If resin is bad, replace the resin. $90 bucks for that unit. If you need parts check here. This guy is great IMO. Here is all the parts for your unit. Your unit is the same as Kenmores, and morton salt softners. You may just need a gasket set, new veturi gasket, float, or resin. It depend on what the issue is. Softenerparts.com Sears,GE, Other Brands You will get alot of opinions here on what is best. I have and always had the Kenmores. Easy to work on if they fail. Not alot of parts. I never had a issue. Some say they are junk, but dont offer why. I would steer you towards the Sears because the stores are everywhere. (Service) GE subs out for service now I think. Whats your water test show? Mike NJ Originally Posted by lawrosa Whats wrong with your current unit? Its probably somewhat cheaper to repair if you DIY. I want to replace it with a 45,000+ grain unit because we have a lot more people living in our 3,200 sq ft house now, and the current 30,000 grain model is too low capacity. Sometimes I can tell when the hard water breaks through when we use a lot of water. Also I would like one that has the low salt indicator light and reminder beep, because I always have to guess when the salt is low (my current model doesn't have any indicator). I am wondering, for example, between the top of the line models of GE, Kenmore, and Whirlpool .. which one is more reliable and has more advanced features .. and if there is some other brand I should consider as well that has the single tank size. Originally Posted by flyingpolarbear I want to replace it with a 45,000+ grain unit because we have a lot more people living in our 3,200 sq ft house now, and the current 30,000 grain model is too low capacity. Sometimes I can tell when the hard water breaks through when we use a lot of water. Also I would like one that has the low salt indicator light and reminder beep, because I always have to guess when the salt is low (my current model doesn't have any indicator). I am wondering, for example, between the top of the line models of GE, Kenmore, and Whirlpool .. which one is more reliable and has more advanced features .. and if there is some other brand I should consider as well that has the single tank size. Low salt indicator light.. one of the worst things yet for a softener. Half the time they work and the other half of the time while they work it is not always correct. Does one wait til the check engine light comes on before doing things for the truck or car? Look at the room and one will most likely find away of working the system that has both a brine tank and the main unit, they do not have to be side by side. You can spend money every few years and break the back getting the old Sears/Kenmore/GE/PolarStar unit out of where it is and fill the land fill or do it right and not have the challenge later down the road. All four have the same control... just laid out a bit different, they All have the same valve, the only thing that changes is the outside brine tank. They all have the same 5 year warranty IF you pay extra for it......and they all let you or a buddy put it in for a case of adult brew..... They sell them cheap because they get them CHEAP to start. City water or Well water? What was the water test? Iron ... Hardness... Number of people in house ? Sometimes I can tell when the hard water breaks through when we use a lot of water. Read this first Metered Water Softeners, Twin Tank Water Softeners, and water treatment technologies Going to a 45k grain from a 32K grain is not going to change a thing except how often it backwashes. 45k is for 20 plus grains hardness and 5 plus people. ( Which you may have.) The units measure the water you use and calculate to leave enough soft water until backwash. Sometimes I can tell when the hard water breaks through when we use a lot of water. This would make me think the settings are not correct. But all in all it may seem you have made up your mind to get a new unit. Akpsdvan makes a good point with the low salt alarm. But again it leads me to believe you may be using alot of salt, and your settings are not correct. Most are against me on the Sears/Kenmore/GE, but I used the Kenmores and never had any issues. I fail to see what some see the issues are with them. These are all the same. Morton System Saver Water Softeners Water Treatment Systems Products from GE Appliances http://ecowater.com/interestedsystem.php Here is the company that makes all of the above units. Northstar Water Treatment Systems Mike NJ Originally Posted by Akpsdvan Low salt indicator light.. one of the worst things yet for a softener. Half the time they work and the other half of the time while they work it is not always correct. My Kenmore unit before the GE had a low salt indicator light and the light was quite useful and accurate enough. Is there a certain brand that tends to have indicator lights that are less accurate? So if I understand what you're sayin, are the only good units the one that have separate tanks? The only good single tank unit is one with a Fleck valve. GE/Whirlpool/Sears are all made by the same company ECOWater. The problem is I have not seen a single tank with a Fleck valve bigger than 32K. If I made space for a double tank unit with a Fleck valve.. besides being more reliable, what would that give me functionally? Better flow rate? Fit more salt into the tank? (filling up less often would be nice) Advanced microprocessor user display? Low salt indicator? (only on ECOWater units?) Fit more salt into the tank? (filling up less often would be nice) Again it may seem your settings may be off. Your softner may be fine. The people trying to help you here need some info before anything can be suggested. You have not given any info yet. With a bigger unit you will use more salt per re gen. I am not sure what you are trying to accomplish with the info you have given IMO. They have a 64K unit. That may have you backwash every two months.......... Good? No. You will probably get channeling. The unit should backwash once a week or 10 days max. But if you think you need it. 64K Metered Water Softener*WS1LM Microprecessor Metered Softener from CAI Technologies Go two tanks you can get a 96K. Better? 96K Metered Water Softener*WS5M-HC Microprocessor Metered Softener from CAI Technologies Hers the cabinet fleck. Only 32K Softenerparts.com Cabinet Enclosed Fleck 5600 Econominder 32K Softener City water or Well water? What was the water test? Iron ... Hardness... Number of people in house ? I will let the other water gurus take over from here. Mike NJ Originally Posted by lawrosa Again it may seem your settings may be off. Your softner may be fine. The people trying to help you here need some info before anything can be suggested. You have not given any info yet. With a bigger unit you will use more salt per re gen. I am not sure what you are trying to accomplish with the info you have given IMO. They have a 64K unit. That may have you backwash every two months.......... Good? No. You will probably get channeling. The unit should backwash once a week or 10 days max. But if you think you need it. 64K Metered Water Softener*WS1LM Microprecessor Metered Softener from CAI Technologies Go two tanks you can get a 96K. Better? 96K Metered Water Softener*WS5M-HC Microprocessor Metered Softener from CAI Technologies Hers the cabinet fleck. Only 32K Softenerparts.com Cabinet Enclosed Fleck 5600 Econominder 32K Softener City water or Well water? What was the water test? Iron ... Hardness... Number of people in house ? I will let the other water gurus take over from here. Mike NJ Excellent info Mike! One of my top priorities is not having to fill up with bags of salt too often. If the higher capacity units use a lot more salt during regeneration, then maybe I should stick with my existing unit despite the occasional hard water break through. Answer the following City water or Well water? What was the water test? Iron ... Hardness... Number of people in house ? And the size of the right unit can be figured out.... other wise if we through enough mud on the wall maybe some thing will stick. Originally Posted by Akpsdvan Answer the following City water or Well water? What was the water test? Iron ... Hardness... Number of people in house ? And the size of the right unit can be figured out.... other wise if we through enough mud on the wall maybe some thing will stick. - City water - Hardness 15-24 grains/gal (18 avg) - Hardness total as CaCO3 261-409 ppm (309 avg) - Iron unknown (probably low, haven't had issues with it) - 5 people in house and sometimes a lot more with guests, 3200 sq ft, 4 bathrooms I set the softener to 22 where it seems to work best. When I set the softener lower I seemed to have more frequent occasions of hard water break through during heavy usage periods. I would be running on the 24 hardness, if the city does less great, but going lower runs the chance of untreated water or running short more often. If the 5 are going to be in the house for the next 10 years and you are going to have large numbers of people often then you might think of a twin system, less likely to let untreated water by and better usage of salt with the number of people within the house for the next 10 years. A system with two separate tanks does not take up that much more space than a cabinet model. It all depends on the size of the salt tank. If you go with a fleck (5600 or 2510 SXT) metered valve and 45k capacity it can be set at 15# salt and 1500 gallons. Depending on usage this will give you about 5-7 days between regenerations and prevent hard water breakthrough. An 18x33 salt tank will have almost 300#'s of salt capacity. Use either Dura Cube or Hardi Cube salt to prevent bridging. This system will last 20+ years and can be rebuilt at any time to extend lifespan. RJ Is it possible to put a softener there and the brine drum in a remote location, say about 15 feet away? Below or above? Do you have pictures of the location? Sometimes problems are easier to solve with more information. What is the chlorine level? At that hardness, a small twin-tank system would work perfectly. One that Kinetico has only uses 18 in diameter and is suited for up to 45 grains. A twin tank would assure you of consistent treated water, very long warranty and using only slightly more space that the GE unit. There are systems that put larger single-tank softeners inside the brine tank but yoiu may still have some of the issues you are trying to avoid. I was about to ask a similar question as polarbear here and stumbled across this thread in searching before I posted. I think I've done quite a bit more research so I can, hopefully, answer some of polar bear's questions and maybe one of you can answer mine. Is channeling only a concern if the resin isn't regenerated frequently enough? For example, if I have a calendar override set to 11 days, does this resolve all concerns about channeling (waste efficiencies aside)? Polarbear: It looks to me like some people here are giving you some slightly misguided information. First, I would say that a bigger water softener will not waste salt as some here have suggested. From what I've read (and I admit to not being an expert but I am pretty smart and have done my reading) larger units allow greater salt efficiency by using lower salt dosage rates (to a point). To big a unit and channeling and excessive time between regenerations becomes a problem. Most of the calculators I've seen seem to seriously underestimate the appropriate size softener. The 45k size some here are recommending would only work with the maximum salt dosage which is bad for the environment (inefficient with salt) and bad for your wallet (salt costs money). Buying a bigger unit is only marginally more expensive anyhow and this would leave you room should you add another member to the family or another bathroom to the house. Here's my understanding of salt use efficiency: Periodically you have to regenerate the media in the softener so that it will continue removing hardness ions. This is done with a salt bath. You can use a more or less concentrated salt solution - this is your salt dosage. Dosages range from 6 pounds per cubic foot of media on the low end to 15 pounds of salt per cubic foot of media on the high end. ***Here's the point, more concentrated solutions get you more regenerative effect but with *diminishing returns*. So, going from 6 to 9 lb dosage gets you more softening power (capacity to remove grains of hardness) but the increase from 9 to 13 is smaller and from 13 to 15 is smaller still. So, if you can get away with a 6 lb dosage that would be ideal. Here's the catch though, with a low dose of salt your supposedly 32k grain softener isn't capable of removing all 32k grains. That capacity, as quoted, is usually with a much higher salt dosage - say 15lbs. So the 32k or 48k capacity rating is *really* misleading. Looking at the cubic feet of media is a better indicator because that is an absolute value rather than the other grain measurement which will be relative to your salt dosage. At a 6 lb dosage your 32k grain system (probably 1 cubic foot of media) will only remove 21k of hardness (See chart here Guidelines for Water Softener Design ). Now, if you take your undersized softener and attempt to low dose it then you end up with more frequent regenerations which is hard on the softener and media and wastes lots of water. But, if you buy an appropriately sized one in the first place then you're golden. There's also the issue of service flow rate where if you exceed the rating you'll be drawing hard water through the softener (the water flows through to fast to be fully softened). I figured any modestly sized good quality system with a good valve (i.e. a fleck unit) would flow more than my house could use. Boy was I wrong. I've got a newer house with 3/4 fittings. I tested how long it takes to fill a gallon bucket in the bath tub (a good place to see the max your plumbing can flow) and came up with 12-15 gallons per minute on repeated tests. With a house as big as yours I'll bet you're at that flow rate or better (imagine if all the fixtures and the washing machine were running at once). Surprisingly, I have to have a pretty big softener to meet my flow requirements (and by big I mean a lot of resin - 2 cubic feet - the SFR is a function of tank/resin bed size and valve flow). So there's another reason why a smaller unit is a bad idea - exceed the service flow rate and you get hard water leakage. With all this in mind, my calculations based on what you've told us are as follows: 24grains (use the upper end of the range) 5 people 75 gal per day on average. FYI, I looked at my water report and in the months I wasn't using my sprinklers I was averaging a whopping 300+ gallons per day for my wife, myself, and my 2yr old daughter. My wife likes baths, go figure. Anyhow, word to the wise, don't use 75 average, look at your own water usage and figure it out. So that's 24*5*75 = 9000 grains of hardness per day. Now you don't' want that system regenerating every day because it's hard on the system and wasteful with water. So let's shoot for every 7 days.. so we multiply the daily need by 7… 9000*7=63000 grain capacity needed. But wait, you don't just buy a 64k grain system and quit.. remember what I said earlier about salt dosage rates? That 64k grain system isn't really that big. Looking back at the table (Guidelines for Water Softener Design ) we can see that 3 cubic feet of resin at 6 lb salt dosage gets us 63,000 grain capacity. That'll do just fine. So, 3 cubic feet of resin is actually rated as about a 95k grain unit. You could probably get away with 2.5 cubic foot of resin though which would be an 80k grain unit. I would definitely not go smaller than that. To answer your question about brands it looks to me like many brands are hype and several are just different badges on the same underlying product. Kinetico is gimmicky, there's no need for a twin tank system in a residence unless people are using water 24 hours a day. The the water driven stuff screams gimmick to me too. The sears, kenmore, ge, stuff is all lowend junk. It's like the craftsmen or murray or lawn mowers when what you want is a snapper. I say fleck all the way. That's what I'll be ordering in the coming days. It's simple to work on so you can DIY or many plumbers will do it. With many of the other systems (incl. kinetico or culligan) you're tied to their rep in the area and I'm sure he'll rape you good on parts and labor. Parts for fleck are inexpensive because it's a tried and true design that's been around so long and it's non-proprietary. Here's the real kicker - a high end fleck isn't really much more expensive then the crap sold at the big box stores but it should be much more reliable and user friendly esp. for the DIY type. You'd need the 7000 series fleck valve for the capacities I've suggested here and those can be had from multiple internet vendors (everything included) for the $800 range. BTW stay away from the vortech tanks. They sound nice but I've read bad things about them from experts elsewhere. As a follow up, I found this discussion of, mainly, commercial applications Water Softeners Product Supply and Water Softener Spares from Industrial Water Equipment Ltd They recommend a minimum of 3 gal per minute of flow per sq ft of bed area (I guess height/depth is irrelevant). On a 64k grain capacity fleck unit the resin tank is 12 wide. This gets a bed area .785 sq ft (area of a circle is pi * radius (.5) squared or 3.14*.5^2). .785*3 gal per minute is 2.36 gal per minute of minimum flow. On the one hand I know the unit easily surpasses this at maximum output (i.e. filling up the tub). On the other hand it may or may not surpass it for other uses such as the kitchen sink or even the (lo-flo) shower head. So how do I interpret this? At what point to I risk channeling? I firmly believe that bigger is better, at least to a point, but to what point precisely? My math in the previous post is correct and I stand by it unless, of course, such a setup would risk channeling. Thoughts? Thank you Will for doing your homework. I find it upsetting that people on here and that I run into in daily life think that just because the softener is twice the size that it needs twice that salt to clean it. It is just not true. I work on units with 1-1/2cuft of resin that use 8lbs of salt per regen just as good as the older 3/4cuft units do. It's all about efficiently getting it through the bed. Also, contact time with the resin. On the channeling side, well, I've never ran into a unit that had channeling. Maybe a unit that hasn't been hooked up in a year or years, but never one in service. Thanks WillH, Most of the water guys on this site pretty much know the info you posted. Its water softner 101. If you frequent some of the main softning sites you may have saved some time by posting links. Most of the guys know this site, and there are a few more like it. I think all the water guys knows this site: Metered Water Softeners, Twin Tank Water Softeners, and water treatment technologies If you dont have 1 main you probably will not see the benefit of a higher capacity system. And the water powered units are a great option for people with frequent power outages. Selecting the Best Water Softeners - Water Softener Systems Explained Size a softner. Look at the salt consumption. You still want the softer to regen every 5 -10 days but I say 7 days is a good rule of thumb. My hardness is 7gpg. 32,000grains. If I leave the seting on 7 it may take a month for the unit to regen. I bumped it up to 20 and get 5-8 days between regen. ( I am oversized ) Metered Water Softeners, and water treatment technologies You also did not mention additional minerals that may be in the water. High iron the unit needs more backwashing = more salt, etc... Chlorine? Replace 2 cft of resin every 5-8 yrs. $350 just for 2cft of quality resin. Not the compatable stuff. Twin Tank Water Softeners, and water treatment technologies Anyway if you sizing a softner because of GPM and you want to be able to run 4 showers, the wash, dish washer, at the same time and still retain capacity, your missing the boat. I would say read somemore about salt use, capacitys, other minerals in the water, flow rates and what they mean, I would say 75% of people oversize thier softners. Here is another good site. Water Softener Selection Calculator - Pick the Best Water Softener - Removing Iron - Potassium Mike NJ I would have to agree WillH. Sizing your water treatment system for flow rates is a critical factor in the overall application of any water treatment application. As the original poster noted, (during periods of heavy usage they can have hard water). This can be caused by several factors, one of them being peak flow rates being exceeded for the softening system. Consequently hardness bleed occurs. Channeling occurs when flow rates through the resin bed are too low, such as a dripping faucet or leaking toilet. The incoming water pressure also factors into sizing of the system. 20psi pressure is too low to regenerate a 1.5 to 2+ cu ft softener, where as 100psi is too high. Flow rates are also a factor of the plumbing. A 3/4 line can only supply 15gpm no matter the pressure. The height, distance and bends that water travels also effect gpm and pressure. Sizing a 2 cu ft softener for this application using the 9000 grains required per day. A 2 cu ft softener will supply 16+ gpm so our flow rates are met. 60k capacity - 20% reserve = 48k capacity 48k/9000=5.3 days between regeneration. At 3000 grains per lb of salt efficiency 16lbs of salt is required for regeneration. 96 lbs of salt per month used with water usage efficiency. GE, Sears, Northstar, Ecowater are made by EcoDyne Corp. I am not a fan of rotary type valves such as EcoDyne and Erie, too many service related issues. A low salt alarm can be added to any water treatment system, some customers really like them. It never ceases to amaze me how complicated these discussions can become. Do they really serve to help the customer or just add to the confusion and frustration level for the customer. It's as bad as asking three Doctors their opinions. WillH has done his homework, that's rare, I congratulate you. If you are contributing to the discussion, have not done your home work and are not a water treatment professional than you may want to consider if you are adding to the confusion and the angst. RJ @lawrosa I agree, most of the pros here probably know and do these sorts of calculations everyday. But I posted the info because our friend polarbear didn't know and was leaning towards a unit that, IMO, is undersized. I also agree that there are other factors to consider such as iron content but that wasn't exactly on the table for discussion because polarbear has told us he's on city water which, I'm told, has little or no iron content. As to the chlorine issue, if you're implying that a smaller unit is better because it will be cheaper to replace the resin when the chlorine ruins it in a few years then, yes, I'll have to agree. But it won't be much cheaper and this alone is certainly not a valid reason to undersize the unit. Bottom line, a quality unit shouldn't be much more expensive then the big box stuff and a larger unit is only marginally more expensive then a smaller unit (maybe $150 at most). Plus a larger unit is more efficient and provides room for expansion and probably won't suffer hardness leakage when water usage is high. I fail to see any valid reason for a smaller or undersized unit in this application. As to your unit being oversized, I couldn't say without more info but in looking at every calculator I've found on the web and then figuring out do calculations myself I've come to the impression that the calculators tend to grossly undersize units because they do not consider the fact that softener capacity is routinely overrated in the industry. 42k grain units really aren't that big unless you're running it at the max salt dose. This is grossly inefficient with the salt and expensive, especially if you're using potassium salts. Really a medium (i.e. 9lbs) or lower dose is appropriate and efficient but unfortunately the industry always reports capacities that are the theoretical maximum under max salt dosage. As to your solution about your unit being oversized, my impression (and again I admit to not being an expert) is that there is a better solution. Rather than increase the hardness setting on the unit (which would tell a metered unit to regenerate more often then it has to) you should just lower the salt dose. If you're already at 6lbs then you probably shouldn't go much lower. But if you're dosing it higher than that (like 12 or 15 lbs) then simply reducing the dosage will make your unit more efficient and it will keep the regen cycles more frequent. It's certainly a better solution then simply upping the hardness setting. Would this fix your problem? I don't know with out knowing the specifics of your system and water quality (and even then I'm not sure). But I think it's sound advice worth considering. edited to say: I wanted to add that the size calculator you linked to at the bottom of your post is probably the closest to accurate that I've seen yet. For my application at least it does tend to underestimate the water flow in my plumbing but it's size recommendation isn't too terrible. It recommends 40k unit which is 1.25 cu ft of media... I would like to be somewhere between 1.5 and 2 cu ft (which I don't think exists) so it's only 1 or maybe 2 sizes to small which is better than most. As to the chlorine issue, if you're implying I dont imply.... I've come to the impression that the calculators tend to grossly undersize units because they do not consider the fact that softener capacity is routinely overrated in the industry. Are you implying????? If I was to imply I would say the opposite. unfortunately the industry always reports capacities that are the theoretical maximum under max salt dosage. add on real water usage?? Those #,s are always higher hence oversizing. Everyone do a test. When your softner is ready to backwash, dont let it. See how long you can go until the water becomes hard. You will be suprised. ( All you water guys should have a hardness kit, and please dont tell me you use strips.) As to your solution about your unit being oversized, my impression (and again I admit to not being an expert) is that there is a better solution. Are you implying? I have a kenmore, and always had them never an issue. I cant adjust my salt level but have it on a salt saving feature. Its says this. A new feature in this model is Salt Efficiency. When this feature is ON, the unit will operate at salt efficiencies of 4000 grains of hardness per pound of salt or higher. I would like to be somewhere between 1.5 and 2 cu ft (which I don't think exists) so it's only 1 or maybe 2 sizes to small which is better than most. Will, you can get dual tanks with 1.5 cft each. Do you have 1 1/4 plumbing? 96K Metered Water Softener*WS5M-HC Microprocessor Metered Softener from CAI Technologies Will this help your issue? Mike NJ. Sounds to me like WillH has you backed into a corner Lawrosa. Good stuff WillH! The point you made about brine efficiency when salt dose is lowered is true but keep in mind the amount of water that's wasted as a result of more frequent regenerations. Consider this: 2 cu ft metered softener 1. 9#s of salt at 3000 grains per pound will provide 27000k/9000 = 3 days. That's 1095#s of salt per year and 23,116 gallons of water per year. 2. At 16#s of salt it's 48000k/9000 = 5 days. That's 1168#s of salt and 13,870 gallons of water per year. Only 73#s more of salt used and 9,200 less gallons of water. RJ @lawrosa I didn't mean to inflame your sensitivities. It wasn't my intent to be hostile but merely to correct some of the suggestions floating around in this thread. I do this because misinformation abounds regarding water softeners. Earlier this year I had the misfortune of a salesmen coming into my house to do a water test whereupon he attempted to sell me a $3500 ge water softener with a kdf filter. I *almost* bought it but decided to do some checking first. I think I've become pretty knowledgeable for and end user as a result. This, of course, doesn't mean that I know everything - I freely admit that. So, I guess what I'm trying to say is please don't let this become a contest to show off who knows more or who can give better advice. As to you apparent fixation on what I did or did not imply what I said was that my impression was x. I wasn't implying anything but plainly expressing the conclusion I had reached. Nowhere did I imply anything, but I did and do openly admit to not being an expert but an end user. Heck, I don't even have the fleck unit yet so I can't even begin to tell you set it up or even install it and that's the truth. But I think I can give good advice as to size the softener. And I only asked why you mention the fact that chlorine is bad for resin and the price of 2 cu ft of resin. I was merely wondering why that was relevant to our sizing discussion if not to show that a bigger softener will cost more when it comes time to replace the resin (that's why I said you implied because you didn't explain why that was relevant, I had to infer it from what you wrote). I wasn't sure if maybe you knew something I didn't, that's why I asked. Please don't take it as a personal attack. Maybe we need to have a beer together Originally Posted by RJh2o The point you made about brine efficiency when salt dose is lowered is true but keep in mind the amount of water that's wasted as a result of more frequent regenerations. Consider this: 2 cu ft metered softener 1. 9#s of salt at 3000 grains per pound will provide 27000k/9000 = 3 days. That's 1095#s of salt per year and 23,116 gallons of water per year. 2. At 16#s of salt it's 48000k/9000 = 5 days. That's 1168#s of salt and 13,870 gallons of water per year. Only 73#s more of salt used and 9,200 less gallons of water. RJ That's an excellent comparison and precisely the sort of thing I'm trying to do. If you don't mind me asking, where are you getting the numbers to arrive at these results? I'd like to do a spreadsheet or something but I can't find any of the raw numbers or equations you'd use to figure out salt and water efficiency. That really is the heart of the matter when you talk about efficiency. You have salt usage which is expensive and bad for the environment (well maybe - my parents had their softener dumping into their ditch for 20+ years and the plants still grew in the ditch). On the other hand you have water usage which costs money and is a drain on natural resources. Efficiency would been balancing both of these for an optimal solution. So, please give me an algebra lesson and show me how you make those sorts of calculations. I intend to buy a unit in the next week and am really trying to make an informed decision (can you tell?) You guys must be a friend of this guy. Have you been reading his site or something? It sounds like thats what your talking about. Quality Water Associates softener sizing chart Do a search of the owner and you will see what I mean. Banned everywhere. Be careful if you are. Some people are a able to sell salt to a slug. Everyone has thier opinions though on what they feel is correct.. This is a DIY site and all posters that were looking for advice, should make you own decision. To much biased info here. Im out because of someone that might be among us..... Im not going to waste my time here. Thanks A. Mike NJ Here are a couple of articles by Chubb Michaud on achieving brine efficiency. http://www.wcponline.com/pdf/August%20Michaud.pdf http://www.wcponline.com/pdf/0202brine.pdf Keep in mind that these efficiencies will vary greatly depending on water chemistry, with iron in the water the efficiency ratings will be much lower. RJ Rjh2o, this one was the most informative thing I have read in awhile. Thanks for that. http://www.wcponline.com/pdf/0202brine.pdf Now you all might knock the kenmore units, but they perform just as this guy describes in the link above. Comparing with what he stated. Kenmores all have metered valves. Minimum water system flow (gpm) 3 Maximum clear water iron (ppm) 5 All have actual Sybron Ionac C249 resin. Not a compatable The feature on all models now is Salt Efficiency setting. When this feature is ON, the unit will operate at salt efficiencies of 4000 grains of hardness per pound of salt or higher. Amount of resin (cu ft) .80 ( I dont even have 1 cft. I am 5 people 2 bath home.) Regeneration cycle times (minutes) Fill 2 - 10 Brining / brine rinse 106 - 110 ( 2 hour brine time ) Backwash 7 Fast rinse 3 Total regeneration time 119 - 129 Efficiency Rating 5060 @ 2.4 lb salt Max. Drain Flow Rate (gpm) 1.8 Everthing That guy stated I compared above with my unit. I tell you that my softner regens once a week, and I still have softwater before the regen starts. I dont have 1 cft of resin. I am oversized if anything. I have worked on other units but personally had only kenmores in my homes. I have always been on wells with unfavorable water. I probably go through no more then 8 - bags of salt a yr. So all those calculators in my opinion are not that accurate. They usually oversize. And you can calculate all you want, but I have tested my water when I bypassed a regen. Do a test yourself. Plus these online units look good and cheap, but the resin is probably the most important. Most of these companys put garbage in them, and even if you spend extra for the fine mesh, its still a compatable at most sites. Perhaps I am used to my units function and quality of water, and the online units are the % wasters as described in your link. Fair enough?? We are all still friends right? Now I dont know everything, and I learn new things everyday. I just dont agree with some stuff stated in this thread. I base it on real world use. We all have are opinions. Most people cant tell hard water from soft when they are in the shower anyway. Most people base it on what the shower head looks like, or some sales man fudging the hardness test. Thanks for that link. It was refreshing to read it. Mike NJ Dйjа vu all over again Yogi Berra If I rent or buy a house and it has a Kenmore or similar unit I rip it out without even messing with it and put in, what I call, a real water softener. No disrespect or disrespect whichever applies. They are labeled as disposable units because when your Sears guy comes out in 2-5 years to fix it he will almost always say, You know, it's going to cost $????????? to fix this unit but for $??????? you can purchase a brand new unit with a new warranty. The customer opts for a new unit and the cycle begins or continues. If you begin with a good system to start with, you can fix it at a reasonable rate and have it for 20+ years. YES, it'll need a bit of service from time to time, but it can be fixed. Not some DIY version of fixed, but a qualified service person fixed. See him every 5-10 years for $200-$300 worth of work and you're good to go. If you actually sit down and do the math it is cheaper to buy a quality expensive unit than it is to buy Kenmore/Sears/Costco/whatever CRAP! I said it. Softenerss rarely die like a light bulb. They die a slow, convoluted death and the owners tolerance to worsening water becomes desensitized until both just give out. In the meanwhile, the damage is done. Going cheap can be very costly, I agree. Could anyone give a actual reason why these units ( kenmore..etc ) are junk? Where are they labled disposable units? Why will the sears guy come out in 2-5 yrs? Its going to cost X amount to fix it? ( Any service tech is going to charge for repair. Kinnetico, culligan, rain soft, etc..) If you go to softner parts .com the parts are all similarly priced all valve parts of all brands. If someone can tell me what actually goes wrong with these units and why they are junk, I would like to know. Mike NJ Originally Posted by lawrosa If someone can tell me what actually goes wrong with these units and why they are junk, I would like to know. Mike NJ In my experience the valve used on Sears units typically fails after considerably shorter service time than Fleck or Clack valves. I have come to believe the rotary valve used on Sears units is inherently less reliable and requires more/more frequent service than Fleck and Clack valves. While I belive Fleck and Clack valves are superior I don't characterize the valves used on Sears units as junk. Thanks bob999, I think its the assumption because some techs cant work on the valves. The only failures that I am aware of is the disk gets scraches, and change the o rings. This may just not to not putting a prefilter before the equiptment which I feel all systems should have anyway. These are simple to work on. The parts for the above metioned are $80. So a DIY could repair his unit for that amount if that was indeed the cause. Most units failures are lack of brine draw. Disk and o ring replacment. Just so you see how simple it is. Softenerparts.com Seal Kit Sears, GE, NorthStar 7129716,7092163,7134224,WS35X10005 Softenerparts.com Rotor Disc Sears, GE, NorthStar 7199232, 7103964, WS26X10002 Also nozzle Venturi with Gasket is $16. So for $100 I can rebuild my whole valve. What is the common failure with the fleck, autotrols, etc and whats the repair cost for a DIY? Are all the others valves flow the same? Example, which way is the flow on service and backwash? I never knew they where different, and assumed they( brands ) all flowed the same. Mike NJ Originally Posted by lawrosa What is the common failure with the fleck, autotrols, etc and whats the repair cost for a DIY? Are all the others valves flow the same? Example, which way is the flow on service and backwash? I never knew they where different, and assumed they( brands ) all flowed the same. Mike NJ Autotrol (GE) valves have a very different design than the Fleck and Clack and I am not going to address those valves. Fleck and Clack valves have very few failures but if they do it is typically the piston and/or the seal pack. Using the same parts source as you quote and assuming a Fleck 5600 valve a rebuild kit including piston, seal pack and brine piston is $59. There are some O rings that are also recommended for replacement--$4. @Rjh2o That's informative indeed. I'm with lawrosa, the article at http://www.wcponline.com/pdf/0202brine.pdf is particularly useful as it even goes so far as to outline and efficient design that the homeowner could put into use. I'm not sure I want to go so far as to custom design a system but just to pick an off the shelf fleck unit that'll be appropriately sized for max efficiency. I'm still interested, though, in water usage. Rjh2o indicated that water usage would be higher with a low salt dose. I'm still thinking this through. Given a fixed system and fixed demand, it seems correct that higher salt dosages would result in less frequent regenerations. This would save water over running the *same* system at lower dosages. However, this isn't the same thing as comparing two *different* sized systems. System one would have greater cu ft of resin to permit infrequent regens with a low salt dose. The comparison system, system two, would have less cu ft of resin, dosed with more salt, to allow for the same infrequent regen cycles. Given this latter comparison it would seem that both systems would use similar amounts of water but system one would use much less salt. Correct? The difference in water usage, I guess, would be in the amount of water each system uses to regen the bed and backwash it - the bigger system would use more. But how much more? Would it be substantial or minimal and how might I calculate this? @lawrosa I'm not Gary Slusser but I have seen his posts and that website in my googling. I don't know enough about clack brand softeners to know if there is any truth to what he was saying. I'm planning on going with a fleck unit so it's a moot point anyway. I will say though that I've made every effort to be friendly with you and you've been nothing but hostile with me. Why? It's just a water softener. Don't get your ego so wrapped up in it. If you can show me where the math I've posted is wrong then please do so. You're exhortations to 'stop your softener from regenerating next time and see how long it continues to soften the water' are silly and anecdotal. The plural of anecdote is *not* data (hint: it's anecdotes). I'm asking you for data not your armchair hypothesizing with your kenmore unit. And I told you, I don't *have* a softener yet so I can't very well experiment with the settings on it anyhow. And if I did have the softener then I wouldn't be here asking others for advice on size it. Originally Posted by lawrosa Could anyone give a actual reason why these units ( kenmore..etc ) are junk? Where are they labled disposable units? I was wondering the same. I remember, before my GE unit, when I had a Kenmore from 1993-2010 outdoors next to the house (17 years).. I had to take apart the valve and replace a little part (gasket? o-ring?) and the motor and it cost me around $100 and I was able to do it myself. I remember when I took the control unit and valve completely apart. It was not hard to take apart and fix at all and that was my first time. So I don't have concerns about longevity and reliability whether it's the store brand or whatever brand. Even if it breaks I can fix it in a few minutes. If you're not a DIY type, then a service technician could get expensive, so I can imagine in those cases reliability would be very important. It would be nice if the Fleck and Clack valve units had a low salt indicator light because I found that to be a very helpful feature on my Kenmore unit as a reminder during those months when I got too busy and forgot to open up the lid and look inside. will say though that I've made every effort to be friendly with you and you've been nothing but hostile with me. Why? It's just a water softener. Don't get your ego so wrapped up in it. Hostile????? Where, when? I apologize if you took the implying thing as hostile. I thought I was friendly. I guess It goes back to old college classes mis-communication. Sometimes writings portray differently than face-to-face communication. Mike NJ Originally Posted by WillH I'm still interested, though, in water usage. I suggest that you need to establish the frequency of regeneration--I suggest once every 7 days as an appropriate value. Now the cubic feet of resin required can vary depending on the salt dose--one cubic foot of resin regenerated with 15 lbs of salt yields ~30,000 grains capacity. The same cubic foot regenerated with 6 lbs of salt yields ~ 20,000 grains of capacity. Obviously the salt efficiency is considerably higher at 6 lbs and I would suggest that you use 6 lbs/cubic foot or less for good salt efficiency. I think that if you approach the analysis in this way you will find that the water efficiency doesn't vary much. You might ask why regenerate every 7 days--I suggest it as a reasonable compromise between water efficiency (which tends to push you to longer intervals between regeneration), maintaining the resin, and regenerating frequently enough to avoid channeling. Originally Posted by Bob999 I suggest that you need to establish the frequency of regeneration--I suggest once every 7 days as an appropriate value. Now the cubic feet of resin required can vary depending on the salt dose--one cubic foot of resin regenerated with 15 lbs of salt yields ~30,000 grains capacity. The same cubic foot regenerated with 6 lbs of salt yields ~ 20,000 grains of capacity. Obviously the salt efficiency is considerably higher at 6 lbs and I would suggest that you use 6 lbs/cubic foot or less for good salt efficiency. I think that if you approach the analysis in this way you will find that the water efficiency doesn't vary much. You might ask why regenerate every 7 days--I suggest it as a reasonable compromise between water efficiency (which tends to push you to longer intervals between regeneration), maintaining the resin, and regenerating frequently enough to avoid channeling. @Bob999 That's pretty much my thinking and the conclusion I reached in post #16. I guess I'm still wondering if using more cu ft of resin and a lower salt dosage will have deleterious effects on my water usage. I'm having a hard time seeing how it would.

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